I didn’t know Avedis Hadjian before I met him, and as is often the case, I met him through the omnipresent “friend” of our times-the Internet. The acquaintance was quite interesting and amazing at the same time.

The second “encounter” was already in real life, and “Hayern Aysor” presents that “encounter” through the following interview:

“Hayern Aysor”: Mr. Hadjian, on one occasion, you said you were born in Aleppo, but didn’t have the opportunity to be raised in Aleppo when you were a child and were never able to see Aleppo after that. I would like to start our conversation from there because the trace that childhood leaves is indelible.

Avedis Hadjian: Yes, I was one-and-a-half years old when my family was compelled to move to Argentina for different reasons. In the 1970s, my father was a Dashnak and was forced to move to Argentina for security reasons. At the time, Argentina was in need of a teacher and a principal, and my father left to take the office of principal at an Armenian school.

I grew up in Argentina, but like my brothers and sisters, I also grew up with the values of Aleppo-Armenians and in an environment that Aleppo-Armenians grew up in.

The Argentinean-Armenian community is an old community spanning a century and has always been known for its spirit and active efforts as Armenians.

When we moved to Argentina, my parents realized that the Armenian communities in the West are not like the Armenian communities in the Middle East. The Armenian communities in the West are the communities that are more prone to assimilation and the communities in which the Armenians have lost knowledge of their language and where Armenian is no longer the first language. However, my parents thought Armenian communities are the same in any part of the world, meaning everyone speaks Armenian and the Armenians are united as one in a district. They were a little surprised when they saw that the community in Argentina was a Spanish-speaking community.

I consider myself lucky to have lived in Argentina, but in a family where Armenian was the household language and which preserved the traditional values. Thanks to that, I know Armenian. If it wasn’t for that, my level of Armenian would have been equivalent to the level of Armenian of a child in school.

I don’t blame our heroic teachers of the Armenian Diaspora who have been able to preserve the Armenian language even in the distant Argentina, France and America a hundred years after the Armenian Genocide. They have done and are doing a tremendous job, but in reality, we see that this doesn’t mean that the child born and raised abroad shouldn’t speak Armenian fluently like the other languages, and the main culprit is the family.

“Hayern Aysor”: I would like to cite your words again, ��?For an Aleppo-Armenian, to grow up away from Aleppo means to not have a childhood…” If we tried to generalize this, could we say that if an Armenian was born in the Diaspora, then that Armenian hasn’t had a childhood and has been deprived of it?

A. H.: That is my conviction, and even thought it might sound offensive, I didn’t say it to offend anyone.

Armenians born in Armenia and in the Armenian communities of Aleppo, Beirut and other countries of the Middle East are obviously born and raised as Armenians, and this is thanks to the society in those countries. Therefore, growing up as an Armenian in the Homeland, Aleppo and Beirut is natural, even though there is a decline based on what I read today. However, Armenians in Argentina and other countries of the West are in a struggle. It’s a struggle (at least that’s what it was when I was growing up in the 1970s) against the mainstream. I grew up speaking Armenian in a community that was no longer an Armenian-speaking community.

I remember (but I accept the fact that it might not be fair to recall my childhood memories) that at the time, the Armenian identity, at least in my environment and at the kindergarten, was a complex phenomenon (inferiority, rejection) and had to do with a lot of complicated issues. At the time, there was an approach that we Armenians are of Armenian origin in Argentina. This interested me during my childhood. How could it be that we weren’t Armenians? I am Armenian, not of origin. Yes, I was raised in Argentina and am Argentinean to a certain extent, but I am first and foremost Armenian, and growing up as an Armenian in Argentina was a struggle against the mainstream.

This is my personal experience and it can’t apply to all Armenians. Although I grew up in Argentina at a young age, I grew up as a foreigner, at least in the beginning. It was a different Armenian community. There were few Aleppo-Armenians and Armenians from the Middle East in the Argentinean-Armenian community. It was a different kind of community in a different period of time. We had come from a different part of the world.

“Hayern Aysor”: Mr. Hadjian, you have addressed the issue of Islamized Armenians, but before we get to that, I have a question that interests me. Who is the Armenian? Is it the person who speaks Armenian, or the person who lives in his homeland and is a Christian? Who is the Armenian?

A. H.: It’s a very complicated question. One can give different answers to a complicated question at a different age. When we’re young, we think we have the answers, but the deeper we think of the question, we see that the questions are so in-depth and intricate, especially when it comes to the Armenian identity.

I can’t give a concrete answer now, but I do believe that if a person is in any way connected to the Armenian nation and feels like an Armenian, nobody or no force has the right to deny that person’s Armenian identity or discredit that person. For example, I know that my great-grandmother, for some unknown reason, was Corsican. I don’t know why she left Corsica for Marash, got married and moved to Damascus. Therefore, I am in some way linked to the Corsicans, but I don’t feel like a Corsican. I know some things and I’m interested, but that’s all. I’m Armenian. Even if there is an Armenian who is 1/8^th or 1/16^th Armenian who wants to return to his roots and feels that he belongs to the nation, nobody has the right to deny that person’s right.

I used to think and still think the Armenian identity is primarily the cultural identity, meaning blood is of no significance. Blood is blood, even though it is important. But I started looking at this from a different angle through my American friend Maureen Mclerney, who lives in Istanbul. On one occasion, she told me that that is a poor argument and lacks principle because, for example, Islamized Armenians returning to their origins will know that their grandparents were of Armenian origin, and so, blood is of significance. The blood is the reason why they start digging deep down to understand where they originate from.

I have met Armenians who know nothing about their origin, identity and national belonging, but are now interested and want to return to their roots and origin because they have found out that their grandmother or father was Armenian. Therefore, this means that yes, they are of Armenian origin and have Armenian blood and want to rediscover themselves or learn about their culture, history that they knew nothing about.

But there is a flipside. What about the Armenians (and there are many Armenians like this in the Diaspora) who are 100% Armenian, know that they are Armenian, but are not interested in their Armenian identity at all? They are lost. Those Armenians no longer consider themselves Armenian, and that’s their right.

Of course, I have my own view on those kinds of Armenians, but that’s my personal opinion. So what if they have Armenian blood? Why is it important? What can we do with that blood? We can have our views on those Armenians whom we consider lost, but we don’t know how their children and grandchildren will view their identities in the future. For instance, look at the Islamized Armenians. Their grandfathers were forcefully Islamized by the Turks because of fear and other complications and weren’t able to transmit their Armenian identity to their grandchildren, but today, in some way, those grandchildren are aware of their Armenian identity and are returning to their roots. This is also important. We don’t know how an Armenian worth nothing for the Armenians today will be like in the future.

German writer Zebald has a book entitled On the Natural History of Destruction in which he mainly addresses the post-war era in Germany and notes that even in the most ruined buildings of cities and districts (Frankfurt, Berlin, etc.) one can see insects, lizards and plants. Thus, even in ruins, life begins again from an unexpected place.

What I’m trying to say is that even the Armenians who are the descendants of destructed generations may someday give birth to new Armenians. This doesn’t mean that we should have nonsensical dreams of creating a sea-to-sea Armenia, but we have to be careful when expressing our opinions. The Armenian who is neutral and is Armenian by origin may give birth to a new Armenian, and the latter’s generations may become the new Armenian generation.

“Hayern Aysor”: Let’s address the issue of the Islamized Armenians. What made you want to get involved in this?

A. H.: In 1985-86, I would visit an Argentinean-Armenian journalist who had a large personal library. They say it’s one of Argentina’s largest personal libraries with nearly 40,000 books. Every time I went to his house I would flip through the books and try to find something interesting to read. One day, I saw a French book entitled “Forgotten Muslims” by Alexander Beniksen and Dennis Kelkegen. I happened to read a page with the words Hamshen and Hemshin in French, but what attracted my attention was something else. I thought it was a word combined by Khemsin and Khamsin, which means fifty in Arabic and is the name of a wind. I thought it was related to that.

The book was actually about the Muslim nations in the Soviet Union, the forgotten Muslims that nobody knew about, including the Kazakhs, the Kyrgyz and the Tajik. The whole world knew them as Russians. I read with amazement and understood that it was about the Muslim Armenians. I thought to myself: How could an Armenian be Muslim? I ran to my father and told him about my “discovery”. He said yes, they were Turkified Armenians. My “knowledge” was limited to that until 1996-97 when Hamshen-Armenian director Oljan Alber presented his film Autumn in New York. I would like to stress the fact that Oljan Alber considers himself a Hamshen-Armenian, not Hamshen and that he got married to one of the daughters of the Dinks. After the play, I asked Oljan why the Hamshen-Armenians weren’t destroyed in 1915, and he explained to me that it was because of their courage and because they considered themselves Armenian. I got excited and was very happy. I remembered my old plan and the book that I had read in the 1980s, and I told myself that I had to write a book about this. When I started studying the Hamshen-Armenians, I discovered the hidden Armenians, as they call them today, and they “motivated” me to show interest. But there were also other reasons that came to me subconsciously, especially after reading an article by Hamshen expert Hovan Simonyan.

Today, Armenians in the Diaspora (in some places faster and in other places slower) are assimilating, and this is troubling. We Armenians are a small nation. Like Khorenatsi said, “poqr atsu enq”, and we’re also afraid of disappearing. It’s one of the consequences of the Genocide. I believe we’re not fighting hard enough against assimilation in the Diaspora. Our major weapon against assimilation is not the struggle for recognition of the Armenian Genocide. Like all Armenians, I would also like Turkey to recognize the Armenian Genocide, not America or other countries. We have a problem with Turkey, not other countries. We have put in all our efforts for genocide recognition, but our major weapon to preserve the Armenian Diaspora should be preservation of culture. Armenians come to Western Armenia and cry when they see the churches and the ruins, but they’re not doing anything to preserve the churches that exist in the Diaspora. The churches in the Armenian Diaspora are in a painful situation, and the clergymen aren’t the main ones to blame. That’s what the Armenians who don’t go to church say. They don’t go because they don’t want to go to church on a Sunday morning and want to stay at home and relax or take a tour around the city.

We have turned recognition of the Armenian Genocide into an easy way of preserving the Armenian identity. Let’s leave our martyrs who were left in the deserts of Der Zor, perform a “sacred funeral” and try to save the Armenians who have survived. I understand that we are tired, but we need a new policy and need to adopt new working styles to resist the new challenges. What’s going to happen when Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide? Allow me to draw a simple comparison. What happened, for instance, when Armenia declared its independence? Let me explain with my example. I had an Armenian upbringing. My father was the editor of an Armenian newspaper and said the collapse of the Soviet Union was impossible in his living years and that we wouldn’t see an independent Armenia. I remember when we were little, we would pray in the evening, and among other things, we would also pray for our grandchildren to see an independent Armenia (he tries not to cry and continues-ed.). Our prayers were answered and our dream turned into a reality. When news about the collapse of the Soviet Union was received, the Armenians who had been dreaming of that until then and were making efforts to preserve the Armenian identity stopped making efforts. The awakening of the Homeland inspired the Armenians abroad, but alongside that, we were defenseless and relaxed. We stopped preserving the Armenian identity because…we had a homeland and were focused on that and kept talking about Genocide recognition day and night. However, the graduates of Armenian schools abroad barely have primary knowledge of Armenian.

Assimilation has risen to great heights over the past 20 years. We have to do something about this. I would like to mention once again that assimilation has risen to great heights in the Diaspora, especially in terms of culture. We only take pride in our cuisine, but the Armenians are known for their culture and literature. Mashtots created the Armenian alphabet so that we wouldn’t get lost. To this day, we have preserved our national identity through culture. We’re a small nation and haven’t had statehood for centuries, but we have preserved our identity through culture and the Church. So, we have to start focusing on these two and move forward. That’s the only way for our nation to survive.

Now when we have lost Western Armenia and there are no more Armenians left there, the Islamized Armenians are emerging. Miracles always happen, but we can’t bring back the Western Armenia as we know it. We’ll get excited when we see Armenians hiding in Sasun, Mush and Van, secretly lighting candles in the ruins of a church. They want to return to their roots and learn Armenian.

Our reality is very troubling. Armenians are emigrating from the homeland and assimilating in the Diaspora. What inspires us is the fact that we haven’t been completely broken down and that in the ruins, there is a flower blossoming, just like Zebal says. But that’s all…It’s just a flower, a ruin, but the building hasn’t been rebuilt.

It is this desperate reality that made me get involved in the issues of Islamized Armenians. It’s wonderful.

“Hayern Aysor”: Mr. Hadjian, it’s very touching and interesting to communicate with people who are just starting to discover their identity. What did you discover for yourself?

A.H.: Every moment and encounter in Western Armenia was a discovery for me. I can recall many touching and interesting moments, but I’ll set aside an event that happened in Sasun and became one of the happiest moments of my life.

Sasun fascinates all Armenians. There are still many Christian Armenians in Sasun. Most of the people are half-Armenian and have Armenian last names. I think if we Armenians were all from Sasun, our history would have been different (seems to “justify” and continues by saying that he is not from Sasun, he is from Cilicia-ed.).

It’s not by chance that our epic is called “Sasuntsi David” (David of Sasun) and that David was from Sasun. When you visit Sasun, you understand why he was particularly from Sasun.

One of the happiest moments of my life was when I climbed to the top of a mountain with two pastors in Kyomek village of Sasun, including Christian Armenian Nurhan and an Arab, Muslim pastor of Sasun. When the two herds parted at the peak of the mountain, I left with the Armenian pastor. The entire mountainous land of Sasun appeared from the peak and it seemed as though it was laid in front of me. I kept thinking to myself how we could have lost all this, but that wasn’t all. The most touching was still ahead. As I admired the scene in front of me, the soft wind blew and I heard the voice of the Arab pastor caling “Nurhan, Nurhan…” It was very touching to hear an Armenian name almost 100 years after the Genocide…

Nurhan’s wife, who was from the Arpi village of Mush, spoke her native language fluently, that is, the Armenian dialect of Mush, and she thought my Armenian was totally different. It was very moving to be in a house that was one of the last ��?islands’ of Western Armenia and where one could still feel the “Armenianness”. It was very touching to see that last particle in the Old Armenian World…

I have many stories to tell, but I wouldn’t like to share them now. I want to publish them in a book. I’m sorry for being selfish. This might be greediness, but I want you to understand me.

“Hayern Aysor”: It’s clear. I and everyone else are impatiently waiting for those stories to become “ours”. Now, let’s touch upon the following: How do you think we should treat Islamized Armenians?

A. H.: I’m not a judge. I can only say that we have to be careful. They know where they live and who their close ones are better than we do. If they were able to come here and preserve their Armenian identity, we have to respect them. If they need help, they know how to get it and where to go.

In response to your question, allow me to share a story. I owe it to Facebook for my first encounter with a Hamshen. He contacted me in the language of Hamshens, which is one of the Armenians’ oldest dialects that the Hamshens have fully preserved. When he contacted me with the old Armenian, it was as if a thousand-year old bridge was laid before me. This man was talking to me in the Armenian language spanning a millennium and would call Armenia (this was what shocked me) Hayk. After being separated for a thousand years, we found each other again. It was very impressive.

 “Hayern Aysor”: How do they look at Armenia and the Armenians?

A. H.: There are many who consider themselves Armenian, are inspired by Armenia and want to come to Armenia, and when they come, they get touched and rejoice to have discovered their identity. There are others who consider themselves Turks. For example, I can’t consider them Turks. He or she might not feel it, but I feel brotherhood with them.

“Hayern Aysor”: Mr. Hadjian, this turned out to be a very substantial and interesting interview. If you have anything to add, I would be more than happy.

A. H.: Yes, it was quite comprehensive…I would like to add that like every Armenian, I’m also concerned about the current state of the Armenians, but we Armenians have been in worse conditions. Yes, Ararat is something like a desire that we can’t achieve today, but as Sevak says, ��?We exist, we will exist and will continue to grow’. I believe in that…

“Hayern Aysor”: If only, as you said on one occasion, didn’t have that much of a spirit to migrate and stayed clung to the land in which we were born…

A. H.: Yes, fortunately or unfortunately, we Armenians are bourgeois. We don’t know what the secret is or what invisible strings are attached that keep us alive. But I don’t like that spirit of migration. I would like us to stay clung to our roots and land. Like trees, human beings also need land. I have seen that in Western Armenia. With ��?kind’ jealousy, I’ve seen how proudly the Islamized Armenians talked about their lands, that their families kept the land for nearly 500 years  when, for instance, their ancestors had emigrated from Sasun to Mush. They like all this. They know the story behind every stone, tree and mountain. They have a history on that land. I, my family and many others like me have lived, live in a place where we have no history. In that sense, I envy them.

If only we didn’t have that spirit and stayed clung to our land and were more courageous. The Kurd, who is in our historic lands and is growing in number, isn’t living in better conditions than we are. We have been the victim of misery. I won’t forget the massacres, but we had to be a little courageous and should have resisted. Yes, we have few conditions, but the Kurds are in our land and are growing in number. Are their conditions good?

Well, of course, we’re smarter, and since we’re smarter, we can make more money. Since we can make more money, we can move from Western Armenia to Constantinople and then to Paris and from Paris to New York.

“Hayern Aysor”: The land is the land and it has a force…

A. H.: Yes, and that force is transmitted, it’s different…The person who is in the land can be the owner of the land. It’s useless to scream ��?those lands are ours’…

P.S.: Avedis Hadjian is a New York-based freelance journalist. He is a correspondent for New York’s International Business Times and Argentina’s Laranción newspapers, as well as a member of the Board of Editors of Lebanon’s Bagin magazine and chairman of the Hamazkayin New York Chapter. Avedis Hadjian has recapped his stories about Islamized Armenians in a book that will be released this summer.

Interview by Lusine Abrahamyan